it’s not that people who are pissed off at biden will hand trump the presidency. it’s that (mostly yt) people who are encouraging others not to vote at all in november or to vote third party are going to hand him the presidency. as a black woman and a communist, I’m pissed at every politician constantly, but voting is the bare minimum alleged allies can do. what those people should be doing is extra-electoral work, but because they’re lazy and think that voting is the only form of activism they don’t even consider that.
Based on conversations I have with some people who aren’t intellectual or political in the same way that most people online tend to be, it seems like the the problem is definitely NOT caused by people are encouraging them not to vote.
It is much more that they do not see that they have anything to vote FOR, and they don’t know what they are voting against (which is shocking but it’s like a bulb burnt out in their mind and they can’t see what’s in the closet).
An existential philosopher would rail at them as the worst kind of people, with their anomie and refusal to take responsibility. But the existential philosopher also knows that people get like this. They get paralyzed and don’t make choices, don’t think about responsibility but simply let life happen as it may—often after something bad happens.
It might be a self-protective mechanism, I don’t know. Or they are just very tired of everything.
Nobody has to do anything at all. It is going to be EXTREMELY difficult to get some of these people to vote no matter what anyone does.
It is not ‘the left’ this time (in fact, it wasn’t so much them in 2016). It might not even be ‘the youth.’ People think there is politics behind it, and project many thoughts into their heads, and rage at these thoughts and these imaginary people but I think this might just be a way to find a container for feelings because this is not an act of defiance on most people’s part. It’s a non-act of hopelessness.
There isn’t politics behind it but antipolitics where they don’t have the feeling politics will solve anything. )As we know, this isn’t true.
There is disaffection, hopelessness, pessimism, disengagement, etc. Calling them lazy will definitely not make it better, and might make it worse. Some people I talk to *genuinely* don’t see the point. The have lost all faith in the process, and they feel hopeless.
It’s hard to get hopeless people to do ANYTHING.
This is likely one of the effects of politicians not listening—after awhile you say ‘what does it have to do with me?’ The politicians don’t seem like they want to have anything to do with you, so you do not want to have anything to do with them.
Some of the people affected this way might have voted Republican (not the ones I know) so it’s possible they cancel out the other ones, and Biden still wins.
But people feeling liike they are stuck in a ditch and it expending to politics is something we have to work on in our country. It’s very dangerous.
My point is online people are probably not going to have a substantial effect. They create a zeitgeist among themselves but this energy probably won’t move the larger public. If they blather nobody should vote or whatever they say—voters we need aren’t going to listen to them. If we tell everyone they should vote —they probably won’t listen to us.
Something could happen that could shift the tone of things for everyone, put the fear of god in people or make things look differently to people than they do now. Some of this could be post-pandemic malaise.
online people are people and a quick search on google tells me that the penetration rate for social media use in the US is 91%, behind only China and India. most americans are online, and most americans are also media illiterate. so, no, I don’t accept your premise. this is the same shit people said in 2016 about “vocal minorities”. I’m going to push back against those people who you think don’t constitute a “substantial effect” because every bit matters when we’re having elections determined by votes in the hundreds or even tens of thousands and my literal life is on the line.
yes! mutual aid in all its forms. I’d recommend reading “Mutual Aid” by Dean Spade. for a longer read, “The Conquest of Bread” by Kropotkin is excellent.
I agree with you completely, Josh. Choosing between the two parties is choosing between two brands of fascism: the one that supports genocide and the other one.
Do third party candidates have a chance? I think about Jill Stein and Cornel West, and think either of them would make a far better president.
Both major parties enthusiastically support genocide, but that is why I don't think I can support either of them.
I think people really need to start thinking about something like a hypothetical election between Hitler and King Leopold: do you vote for the actual evil man who is only evil to people outside of your country or the (greater?) evil man who is evil to everyone?
I don't disrespect people who are plugging their noses air-tight, meditating hard on a mantra of "Trump is worse! Trump is worse! …", and voting Blue, but I can't join them.
I can't stand Trump either. I also can't stand genocide, and those who fund and arm Israel, and veto ceasefire resolutions. Not much of a choice imo. Third parties?
“At this moment many of us are rightly scared of a second Trump term. And that fear, combined with the mentality and direction taken by the leaders of the party, has a decent number of lifelong Democrats thinking that what they ought to do is shame, rebuke, or generally antagonize and fearmonger people into voting blue. My counter-argument to this approach is simple, and comes down to this: it doesn’t work.”
I was going to write a Medium blog about this but you beat me to it. Thank you for articulating this. I’m a queer liberal zoomer but I’m not 100% sure I’m going to vote for Biden and I’m tired of some Democrats’ nastiness towards anyone who is considering voting third party. :/
I am reading all of these responses to voting by people who are genuinely fearful of Trump. He is a monster, as I will attest to. But tell me this folks— who here can really absolve Biden and Netanyahu of the genocidal role they took in the Gaza Massacres. One after another died many babies and premature babies died as well. There were 50,000 pregnant Palestinian women, and many now are prepping to deliver have no clean water or food or any medical supplies as they destroyed all of the hospitals. Almost 400 doctors were murdered in the hospitals they served that were filled with sick patients. How can you justify this type of monstrous actions and still be okay with it. So Genocide Joe is all you have to clutch onto when we have other alternatives out there? Why aren’t you insisting with everyone that Joe isn’t the one. He’s way down in the polls, so if you are smart pressure the DNC to give up the ship on Joe. They just found hundreds of bodies of dead Palestinian men who were shot inthe head execution style in Northern Gaza. So how is this a good thing. An entire nation destroyed by Israel and the US, and how do you feel we are not in a dictatorship already? Aren’t activists being punished all over this nation right now for speaking out about genocide? This is not free speech at all. This already is a dictatorship—let’s face it and move on! Palestinian students have been targeted even Jewish voices for peace are being targeted in their hobs because certain people who support Israel are forcing it through AIPAC. Our own Senators have taken millions of graft from AIPAC. Even in my state where there are probably ten Jews and maybe one Zionist lives here. But we are not well represented, in light of the large sums of money and corruption that exists now. So you can try and scare me with Trump but frankly Biden’s behind in the polls and it doesn’t look good for as long has he holds onto Israel. By the way— I took a pill in my class on current events. I asked my students if they heard about what is going on in Gaza overseas. I asked them what they thought and they stated in general they were really horrified and then I asked all 25 of them to show hands who would or would not vote for Biden again this time around. They all raised their hands in a resounding, “No.” All 25 of them. I asked them how they were registered, and they said Democrat of course. I asked again how many students weee forwarding the posts about Gaza and most of my students were not reposting, and they said it was out of fear because they do also feel they live in a dictatorship, which is very sad but true. They see ahead and see possible future pressure on them. But this is a definite sign. It’s a sign that many people now are even afraid to speak out, but they realize they are sick and tired of the problems that our corrupt politicians perpetrate! Oh yes they are voting but not for Biden and they won’t vote for Trump. And how can any feminist see these women’s issues and not stand up for women here. But then there is racial issues. People are genuinely racist want to look the other way because Palestinian lives obviously don’t match up to our own selfish American lives, even though our nation is causing this human suffering unnecessarily. You fakers should be ashamed of yourselves. Just say you are a white settler colonizer and get it over with. I’m tired of everyone saying 45 is worse. Biden isn’t any better. He’s cruel
One harsh way to look at this is to consider whether you would have voted for Humphrey in 1968, who was closer to LBJ than he wanted to admit. No? Hooray for Nixon!
Humphrey called for an immediate bombing halt when his base abandoned him for his hawkishness, because he knew he needed to appeal to liberals and young people to win. If he had done this a few weeks earlier, he would have won the election.
I followed that and McGoverns campaign for the Presidency. Yes Hubert was a bit of a war hawk; however, McGovern I believe McGovern should have picked him for the win. The reason being Mcgovern would have still been able to stop the Vietnam war, nonetheless. Hubert would have helped McGovern win and Humphrey should have helped Mcgovern win but because he was a Neo-Liberal (probably one of the first of that era.) McGovern was ignored by the press due to the MIC (who controls the media) needing to be in-the Vietnam war. “The enemies at the gate. “
In the now mostly sham democracies of the West, it is clearly lobbies that determine policy. Once sometimes effective, marching and movements now achieve next to nothing. What is successful? The NRA, the fossil fuel lobby, the MIC lobby, and arguably the most successful of all, the Israel lobby. Maybe this is a dark thought, but is it possible to imagine a lobby of the 99%, able to buy legislators just like the other lobbies do? I have seen figures suggesting Biden has taken around $4.5 million from the Israel lobby. A mass lobby of the 99% could easily raise that, surely?
In the now mostly sham democracies of the West, it is clearly lobbies that determine policy. Once sometimes effective, marching and movements now achieve next to nothing. What is successful? The NRA, the fossil fuel lobby, the MIC lobby, and arguably the most successful of all, the Israel lobby. Maybe this is a dark thought, but is it possible to imagine a lobby of the 99%, able to buy legislators just like the other lobbies do? I have seen figures suggesting Biden has taken around $4.5 million from the Israel lobby. A mass lobby of the 99% could easily raise that, surely?
1. A student fails a test and whines to the teacher, "Why did you give me an F?"
"I didn't give you an F, you gave yourself an F"
2. A mediocre employee who imagines that they are irreplaceable engages in multiple acts of insubordination and gets fired for those acts. And their mediocre performance.
Honestly, it could be a lot worse. Trump and Biden are both so old and caught up. I’ll take old, tired snd self involved sociopaths over young and creative ones any day. There’s so much extreme discourse in the country right now. Better to have the same blahh than risk the next Hitler coming to power. I fear we live with in an age where that’s an actual possibility.
Overall the democrats do way more to protect the earth and human rights. Even if it’s still wildly misguided.
Trump wouldn’t support Palestine either. I mean, he’d lie about it but then would do nothing.
I'm not going to shame anyone for their voting decision. Your vote is your right. But I hope you realize the political bind Biden is in. If he calls for a ceasefire, he will alienate probably a larger block of voters than satisfy young people who have low voting attendance to begin with.
it’s not that people who are pissed off at biden will hand trump the presidency. it’s that (mostly yt) people who are encouraging others not to vote at all in november or to vote third party are going to hand him the presidency. as a black woman and a communist, I’m pissed at every politician constantly, but voting is the bare minimum alleged allies can do. what those people should be doing is extra-electoral work, but because they’re lazy and think that voting is the only form of activism they don’t even consider that.
Based on conversations I have with some people who aren’t intellectual or political in the same way that most people online tend to be, it seems like the the problem is definitely NOT caused by people are encouraging them not to vote.
It is much more that they do not see that they have anything to vote FOR, and they don’t know what they are voting against (which is shocking but it’s like a bulb burnt out in their mind and they can’t see what’s in the closet).
An existential philosopher would rail at them as the worst kind of people, with their anomie and refusal to take responsibility. But the existential philosopher also knows that people get like this. They get paralyzed and don’t make choices, don’t think about responsibility but simply let life happen as it may—often after something bad happens.
It might be a self-protective mechanism, I don’t know. Or they are just very tired of everything.
Nobody has to do anything at all. It is going to be EXTREMELY difficult to get some of these people to vote no matter what anyone does.
It is not ‘the left’ this time (in fact, it wasn’t so much them in 2016). It might not even be ‘the youth.’ People think there is politics behind it, and project many thoughts into their heads, and rage at these thoughts and these imaginary people but I think this might just be a way to find a container for feelings because this is not an act of defiance on most people’s part. It’s a non-act of hopelessness.
There isn’t politics behind it but antipolitics where they don’t have the feeling politics will solve anything. )As we know, this isn’t true.
There is disaffection, hopelessness, pessimism, disengagement, etc. Calling them lazy will definitely not make it better, and might make it worse. Some people I talk to *genuinely* don’t see the point. The have lost all faith in the process, and they feel hopeless.
It’s hard to get hopeless people to do ANYTHING.
This is likely one of the effects of politicians not listening—after awhile you say ‘what does it have to do with me?’ The politicians don’t seem like they want to have anything to do with you, so you do not want to have anything to do with them.
Some of the people affected this way might have voted Republican (not the ones I know) so it’s possible they cancel out the other ones, and Biden still wins.
But people feeling liike they are stuck in a ditch and it expending to politics is something we have to work on in our country. It’s very dangerous.
we’re talking about people online.
My point is online people are probably not going to have a substantial effect. They create a zeitgeist among themselves but this energy probably won’t move the larger public. If they blather nobody should vote or whatever they say—voters we need aren’t going to listen to them. If we tell everyone they should vote —they probably won’t listen to us.
Something could happen that could shift the tone of things for everyone, put the fear of god in people or make things look differently to people than they do now. Some of this could be post-pandemic malaise.
online people are people and a quick search on google tells me that the penetration rate for social media use in the US is 91%, behind only China and India. most americans are online, and most americans are also media illiterate. so, no, I don’t accept your premise. this is the same shit people said in 2016 about “vocal minorities”. I’m going to push back against those people who you think don’t constitute a “substantial effect” because every bit matters when we’re having elections determined by votes in the hundreds or even tens of thousands and my literal life is on the line.
Can we do anything besides the usual things-registering people to vote, etc?
yes! mutual aid in all its forms. I’d recommend reading “Mutual Aid” by Dean Spade. for a longer read, “The Conquest of Bread” by Kropotkin is excellent.
your comment is unintelligible.
I agree with you completely, Josh. Choosing between the two parties is choosing between two brands of fascism: the one that supports genocide and the other one.
Do third party candidates have a chance? I think about Jill Stein and Cornel West, and think either of them would make a far better president.
Both major parties enthusiastically support genocide, but that is why I don't think I can support either of them.
I think people really need to start thinking about something like a hypothetical election between Hitler and King Leopold: do you vote for the actual evil man who is only evil to people outside of your country or the (greater?) evil man who is evil to everyone?
I don't disrespect people who are plugging their noses air-tight, meditating hard on a mantra of "Trump is worse! Trump is worse! …", and voting Blue, but I can't join them.
I get it, Pete. I don't know what I'd do if I lived in the USA. What a nightmare!
You can’t be serious. I know your comment was posted nearly a month ago but I had to reply.
I can't stand Trump either. I also can't stand genocide, and those who fund and arm Israel, and veto ceasefire resolutions. Not much of a choice imo. Third parties?
“At this moment many of us are rightly scared of a second Trump term. And that fear, combined with the mentality and direction taken by the leaders of the party, has a decent number of lifelong Democrats thinking that what they ought to do is shame, rebuke, or generally antagonize and fearmonger people into voting blue. My counter-argument to this approach is simple, and comes down to this: it doesn’t work.”
I was going to write a Medium blog about this but you beat me to it. Thank you for articulating this. I’m a queer liberal zoomer but I’m not 100% sure I’m going to vote for Biden and I’m tired of some Democrats’ nastiness towards anyone who is considering voting third party. :/
I am reading all of these responses to voting by people who are genuinely fearful of Trump. He is a monster, as I will attest to. But tell me this folks— who here can really absolve Biden and Netanyahu of the genocidal role they took in the Gaza Massacres. One after another died many babies and premature babies died as well. There were 50,000 pregnant Palestinian women, and many now are prepping to deliver have no clean water or food or any medical supplies as they destroyed all of the hospitals. Almost 400 doctors were murdered in the hospitals they served that were filled with sick patients. How can you justify this type of monstrous actions and still be okay with it. So Genocide Joe is all you have to clutch onto when we have other alternatives out there? Why aren’t you insisting with everyone that Joe isn’t the one. He’s way down in the polls, so if you are smart pressure the DNC to give up the ship on Joe. They just found hundreds of bodies of dead Palestinian men who were shot inthe head execution style in Northern Gaza. So how is this a good thing. An entire nation destroyed by Israel and the US, and how do you feel we are not in a dictatorship already? Aren’t activists being punished all over this nation right now for speaking out about genocide? This is not free speech at all. This already is a dictatorship—let’s face it and move on! Palestinian students have been targeted even Jewish voices for peace are being targeted in their hobs because certain people who support Israel are forcing it through AIPAC. Our own Senators have taken millions of graft from AIPAC. Even in my state where there are probably ten Jews and maybe one Zionist lives here. But we are not well represented, in light of the large sums of money and corruption that exists now. So you can try and scare me with Trump but frankly Biden’s behind in the polls and it doesn’t look good for as long has he holds onto Israel. By the way— I took a pill in my class on current events. I asked my students if they heard about what is going on in Gaza overseas. I asked them what they thought and they stated in general they were really horrified and then I asked all 25 of them to show hands who would or would not vote for Biden again this time around. They all raised their hands in a resounding, “No.” All 25 of them. I asked them how they were registered, and they said Democrat of course. I asked again how many students weee forwarding the posts about Gaza and most of my students were not reposting, and they said it was out of fear because they do also feel they live in a dictatorship, which is very sad but true. They see ahead and see possible future pressure on them. But this is a definite sign. It’s a sign that many people now are even afraid to speak out, but they realize they are sick and tired of the problems that our corrupt politicians perpetrate! Oh yes they are voting but not for Biden and they won’t vote for Trump. And how can any feminist see these women’s issues and not stand up for women here. But then there is racial issues. People are genuinely racist want to look the other way because Palestinian lives obviously don’t match up to our own selfish American lives, even though our nation is causing this human suffering unnecessarily. You fakers should be ashamed of yourselves. Just say you are a white settler colonizer and get it over with. I’m tired of everyone saying 45 is worse. Biden isn’t any better. He’s cruel
One harsh way to look at this is to consider whether you would have voted for Humphrey in 1968, who was closer to LBJ than he wanted to admit. No? Hooray for Nixon!
Humphrey called for an immediate bombing halt when his base abandoned him for his hawkishness, because he knew he needed to appeal to liberals and young people to win. If he had done this a few weeks earlier, he would have won the election.
I followed that and McGoverns campaign for the Presidency. Yes Hubert was a bit of a war hawk; however, McGovern I believe McGovern should have picked him for the win. The reason being Mcgovern would have still been able to stop the Vietnam war, nonetheless. Hubert would have helped McGovern win and Humphrey should have helped Mcgovern win but because he was a Neo-Liberal (probably one of the first of that era.) McGovern was ignored by the press due to the MIC (who controls the media) needing to be in-the Vietnam war. “The enemies at the gate. “
Biden is no Humphrey, but then OTOH Trump isn't worthy to be Nixon's cellmate in those timelines where Ford doesn't pardon him.
Yeah, in truth Nixon looks like Lincoln compared to Trump, that's how bad it's become.
In the now mostly sham democracies of the West, it is clearly lobbies that determine policy. Once sometimes effective, marching and movements now achieve next to nothing. What is successful? The NRA, the fossil fuel lobby, the MIC lobby, and arguably the most successful of all, the Israel lobby. Maybe this is a dark thought, but is it possible to imagine a lobby of the 99%, able to buy legislators just like the other lobbies do? I have seen figures suggesting Biden has taken around $4.5 million from the Israel lobby. A mass lobby of the 99% could easily raise that, surely?
In the now mostly sham democracies of the West, it is clearly lobbies that determine policy. Once sometimes effective, marching and movements now achieve next to nothing. What is successful? The NRA, the fossil fuel lobby, the MIC lobby, and arguably the most successful of all, the Israel lobby. Maybe this is a dark thought, but is it possible to imagine a lobby of the 99%, able to buy legislators just like the other lobbies do? I have seen figures suggesting Biden has taken around $4.5 million from the Israel lobby. A mass lobby of the 99% could easily raise that, surely?
A couple metaphors come to mind:
1. A student fails a test and whines to the teacher, "Why did you give me an F?"
"I didn't give you an F, you gave yourself an F"
2. A mediocre employee who imagines that they are irreplaceable engages in multiple acts of insubordination and gets fired for those acts. And their mediocre performance.
for anyone interested in options outside the dem/republican spectrum:
votesocialist2024.com
Honestly, it could be a lot worse. Trump and Biden are both so old and caught up. I’ll take old, tired snd self involved sociopaths over young and creative ones any day. There’s so much extreme discourse in the country right now. Better to have the same blahh than risk the next Hitler coming to power. I fear we live with in an age where that’s an actual possibility.
Overall the democrats do way more to protect the earth and human rights. Even if it’s still wildly misguided.
Trump wouldn’t support Palestine either. I mean, he’d lie about it but then would do nothing.
I'm not going to shame anyone for their voting decision. Your vote is your right. But I hope you realize the political bind Biden is in. If he calls for a ceasefire, he will alienate probably a larger block of voters than satisfy young people who have low voting attendance to begin with.