I hope you haven’t seen the latest conservative conspiracy theory, both because it’s so ridiculous that it indicates a full divorce from reality and because I’m about to show it to you. In short, the theory goes that Taylor Swift’s boyfriend, Travis Kelce, is preordained to win the Super Bowl (either by the NFL or the CIA or somebody) so that the couple, at the height of their power, can help elect Joe Biden.
I can't remember where I read this, but it was to the effect that attitudes of domination lead to isolation, and that you can't have an attitude like that if you want genuine connection.
That made a lot of sense to me, and this article brought that thought up.
We don’t have the miserable economic situation that was in Weimar Germany but we have something far, far worse. The internet’s intrusion into idle minds.
I don’t know, our economic situation in the US is pretty miserable. People can’t rent an apartment unless they earn 3 1/2 times the rent amount. How many people earn 3 1/2 times today’s rents? And even when they do, they are struggling to find housing. My friend has a masters degree and a professional job and she’s terrified she’s going to have to go live in a motel next month when she has to get out of her apartment because her landlord needs it for a relative. She has a child and a dog and the current one bedroom rates will take half of her monthly income. She’s not Bougie, she’ll sleep on the sofa and give her kid the bedroom if she has to, but she doesn’t earn 3 1/2 times the one bedroom rates either. She earns more than $60,000 a year she should be able to afford a one bedroom apartment. (And by saying “afford” I’m not talking about her saying that she can’t pay it because she would rather buy avocado toast or Starbucks, I’m saying they won’t let her because it’s not 3 1/2 times the rent.)
I think this article is important in that it identifies the fascist edge of patriarchy, but I do not agree that that edge - or patriarchy - will fizzle out on its own.
Patriarchy is propped up by our white capitalist sexist system, and has been that way for generations.
This latest fascist version has always existed, we are just more apt to see it due to modern tech i.e. like twitter, substack, etc., as well as the rise of MAGA.
I would argue that members of the KKK and Nazi sympathizers also buy into extreme versions of masculinity that you discuss in the article. And have so for years. That’s just a guess, but having grown up in the South and seeing toxic masculinity in various forms, this is nothing new.
I very much hope that we can work to change the patriarchal system we live in, and move towards more connection and friendship for men. But that will probably take a lot of work, which this article is definitely a part of.
Oh, and by the way, I am in no way affiliated with that other Vivek :).
Did you ever read "Male Fantasies?" It's a little 1970s but the theory is interesting. Basically that the German men who were instrumental to the rise of Nazism were petrified of being subsumed by femininity, expressed in letters etc as symbolic floods, mud, softness etc., and obsessed with a rigid way of being in a militaristic space. These men always needed war.
In that worldview, individual woimen that were either asexual angel wives or fiendish "red" Communist women that were sex objects that also had to be destroyed. I agree with you that what you describe above is unsustainable but sometimes only become that after mass violence.
Yes, many men pay rather significant costs associated with conventional masculine culture and structures. Of course, in a pinch the also benefit from sexist privilege.
However, for me, the matter is greatly enhanced by addressing the class issues involved in patriarchy. By that I mean that patriarchy is one the central cultural means by which a few men (together in some cases with class allies who are gendered women) dominate the majority of people.
Dominant men must learn the ways of dominance including how to organize and motivate violence against those who resist their power.
In the resulting highly stratified society, women and various racial and ethnic groups are routinely “othered” signaling the legitimacy of force, as needed, to keep them line.
In the USA, white men who are excluded from the dominant class are also a threat to the order of domination. With men, the controls are more subtle. The principal means is intense shaming of boys and men who do not follow the behavior strictures of proscribed masculinity. Of course, violence is also employed.
The boys and men targeted by these means are then offered forgiveness and acceptance if they adopt the proscribed masculine behaviors and roles. It should be noted that many mothers and aunts seek to teach their boys the conventional masculine ways, believing their boys have no other options.
I believe it is important that we move beyond the individual choice frame that is fairly ubiquitous in the US. Class position and accepted roles therein are key to understanding both individual reactions (including, loss, resentment, and confusion) and the social and political dynamics of patriarchy.
Excellent post! It makes me think about that running list I saw somewhere about what classifies as “gay,” sparked by the constant tweets asking, “Is it gay to...” Drinking water, saying hello and breathing air were on the list.
With death by suicide being on the upswing for men in this country, a different reality and view of what is possible is essential.
Great piece Josh. I do hope your optimism about the limited lifespan of misogynist/fascism is borne out - I'm struggling to believe that at the moment which is really depressing.
Apologies also - I really want to restack this but for some reason of late, the app hasn't been letting me do that
Men who worship Andrew Tate, men who hate women, are closet homosexuals. Let the manosphere have them, maybe they will date each other. Women aren’t dating them.
No they're not. They're feeling lost and angry and unsettled and turning to the likes of Andrew Tate because he helps them channel their rage and makes them feel (fleetingly) less impotent. To call them "closet homosexuals" suggests this is a problem created by gay men. It most emphatically is not.
Men who seek affection in other men are not the problem and the article actually does a great job explaining how Tate followers are incapable of this. Maybe take a second to think about why the first thing you jump to is pointing a finger at gay men.
Sorry about that 😞 It wasn't paywalled when I first accessed it so was gutted to find out that it was when I returned to it (and wow, the FT is expensive!!!)
I can't remember where I read this, but it was to the effect that attitudes of domination lead to isolation, and that you can't have an attitude like that if you want genuine connection.
That made a lot of sense to me, and this article brought that thought up.
Connection is what makes life meaningful.
Wow, I can’t believe that perspective exists. 😳 Glad yours exists to counter that!
“I think we’re about to see a generation of men who got burnt out on fascist masculinity and desperately want answers”
I read the whole thing and I started to comment on at least 6 different quotes but then I settled on the one above because this is my deepest hope.
We don’t have the miserable economic situation that was in Weimar Germany but we have something far, far worse. The internet’s intrusion into idle minds.
I don’t know, our economic situation in the US is pretty miserable. People can’t rent an apartment unless they earn 3 1/2 times the rent amount. How many people earn 3 1/2 times today’s rents? And even when they do, they are struggling to find housing. My friend has a masters degree and a professional job and she’s terrified she’s going to have to go live in a motel next month when she has to get out of her apartment because her landlord needs it for a relative. She has a child and a dog and the current one bedroom rates will take half of her monthly income. She’s not Bougie, she’ll sleep on the sofa and give her kid the bedroom if she has to, but she doesn’t earn 3 1/2 times the one bedroom rates either. She earns more than $60,000 a year she should be able to afford a one bedroom apartment. (And by saying “afford” I’m not talking about her saying that she can’t pay it because she would rather buy avocado toast or Starbucks, I’m saying they won’t let her because it’s not 3 1/2 times the rent.)
this is especially funny because taylor swift isn’t a feminist. as far as i’m concerned this is infighting.
The infighting is reaching epic proportions. Did you see this yesterday in Oklahoma? State GOP sanctioned their US Senator. Geniuses.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4434317-oklahoma-gop-votes-to-censure-lankford-over-senate-border-talks/
I think this article is important in that it identifies the fascist edge of patriarchy, but I do not agree that that edge - or patriarchy - will fizzle out on its own.
Patriarchy is propped up by our white capitalist sexist system, and has been that way for generations.
This latest fascist version has always existed, we are just more apt to see it due to modern tech i.e. like twitter, substack, etc., as well as the rise of MAGA.
I would argue that members of the KKK and Nazi sympathizers also buy into extreme versions of masculinity that you discuss in the article. And have so for years. That’s just a guess, but having grown up in the South and seeing toxic masculinity in various forms, this is nothing new.
I very much hope that we can work to change the patriarchal system we live in, and move towards more connection and friendship for men. But that will probably take a lot of work, which this article is definitely a part of.
Oh, and by the way, I am in no way affiliated with that other Vivek :).
Did you ever read "Male Fantasies?" It's a little 1970s but the theory is interesting. Basically that the German men who were instrumental to the rise of Nazism were petrified of being subsumed by femininity, expressed in letters etc as symbolic floods, mud, softness etc., and obsessed with a rigid way of being in a militaristic space. These men always needed war.
In that worldview, individual woimen that were either asexual angel wives or fiendish "red" Communist women that were sex objects that also had to be destroyed. I agree with you that what you describe above is unsustainable but sometimes only become that after mass violence.
Thankfully we have tofu to feminize them!
nobody hates men more than other men :(
Many great points in this essay @New Means.
Yes, many men pay rather significant costs associated with conventional masculine culture and structures. Of course, in a pinch the also benefit from sexist privilege.
However, for me, the matter is greatly enhanced by addressing the class issues involved in patriarchy. By that I mean that patriarchy is one the central cultural means by which a few men (together in some cases with class allies who are gendered women) dominate the majority of people.
Dominant men must learn the ways of dominance including how to organize and motivate violence against those who resist their power.
In the resulting highly stratified society, women and various racial and ethnic groups are routinely “othered” signaling the legitimacy of force, as needed, to keep them line.
In the USA, white men who are excluded from the dominant class are also a threat to the order of domination. With men, the controls are more subtle. The principal means is intense shaming of boys and men who do not follow the behavior strictures of proscribed masculinity. Of course, violence is also employed.
The boys and men targeted by these means are then offered forgiveness and acceptance if they adopt the proscribed masculine behaviors and roles. It should be noted that many mothers and aunts seek to teach their boys the conventional masculine ways, believing their boys have no other options.
I believe it is important that we move beyond the individual choice frame that is fairly ubiquitous in the US. Class position and accepted roles therein are key to understanding both individual reactions (including, loss, resentment, and confusion) and the social and political dynamics of patriarchy.
Agree. small edit: prescribed, not proscribed.
Thanks. Have to look that up, so that I remember it. It just so feels to me that it should be “proscribed”. But, then, my feelings lead me astray. 😉
Excellent post! It makes me think about that running list I saw somewhere about what classifies as “gay,” sparked by the constant tweets asking, “Is it gay to...” Drinking water, saying hello and breathing air were on the list.
With death by suicide being on the upswing for men in this country, a different reality and view of what is possible is essential.
Great piece Josh. I do hope your optimism about the limited lifespan of misogynist/fascism is borne out - I'm struggling to believe that at the moment which is really depressing.
Apologies also - I really want to restack this but for some reason of late, the app hasn't been letting me do that
Men who worship Andrew Tate, men who hate women, are closet homosexuals. Let the manosphere have them, maybe they will date each other. Women aren’t dating them.
No they're not. They're feeling lost and angry and unsettled and turning to the likes of Andrew Tate because he helps them channel their rage and makes them feel (fleetingly) less impotent. To call them "closet homosexuals" suggests this is a problem created by gay men. It most emphatically is not.
Men who seek affection in other men are not the problem and the article actually does a great job explaining how Tate followers are incapable of this. Maybe take a second to think about why the first thing you jump to is pointing a finger at gay men.
By calling his supporters gay you might actually be able to peel some off their deranged fantasies.
Way to hit that strawman with a plane load of napalm.
This was an excellent read, thank you. ☺️
This was an excellent read, thank you. ☺️
Did you see this? An international perspective on the trend you're describing https://www.ft.com/content/29fd9b5c-2f35-41bf-9d4c-994db4e12998
Paywalled
Sorry about that 😞 It wasn't paywalled when I first accessed it so was gutted to find out that it was when I returned to it (and wow, the FT is expensive!!!)