My reaction as a woman is to wish that the guy promoting conspiracy theories had gotten at least a little push back in front of the large group, because silence implies complicity. The silent eye rolls he did not see may allow him and those who agree with him to continue to believe that their peers agree with them, which isn't true.
The reason that this makes me uncomfortable is that I suspect that your experience around this circle would not have been much different had the gentleman made a disparaging comment about women.
Women have been begging the "good guys" to stand up to the creeps in real time when they cat call us or tell sexist jokes in men-only spaces or observe workplace harassments and/or discrimination. We certainly need more than a "not all men" approach to the epidemic of domestic violence against women and children.
We need to acknowledge that men can be the most effective force to make lasting changes to male culture. I would argue that men are the *only* ones who can permanently change male culture. Which is why I find it difficult to hear stories of the self-proclaimed "good guys" remaining silent instead of calling other men to a higher standard.
Totally agree. Shutting down a harmful belief/thought is not the end of conflict resolution. It could even be the beginning. Can't we accept someone while rejecting some of their thoughts and actions?
Would be curious to hear what folks think are effective conflict resolution styles, especially in environments where the requirement to accomplish something or maintain the community persists.
Here her! Change has to come from the men, and it will take recognizing their own power and stepping back and speaking up to truly foster change. We have kept our kindness in check long enough, and it has not created anything close to actual change! Thanks Nina for saying what many of us women feel and aren’t allowed to express bc it’s just not nice…
I just want to say, I appreciate this comment and respect it quite a bit, it’s made an impression on me as I’ve read it a couple times now. You’re absolutely right. I will remember this comment, I hope, the next time I feel the strong “smile/nod/back away slowly” urge I often feel when dealing with these guys. Just because they were tyrannical to the rest of the boys during our school years doesn’t mean we have to remain scared of them as adults.
“We can disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist.”
― James Baldwin
Maybe we can make our way back to each other and managing minor annoyances rather than existential threats. It has been interesting to read that so many young people are drawn to Walz because he reminds them of who their father or grandfather could have been were it not for the toxic soup of the maga movement. I think many people long for connection to loved ones lost to a world view of hate and othering.
I needed to hear this for a whole slate of reasons right now. I’m a man who was raised, mostly by a woman, outside the traditional confines of gender roles, but I was still raised in a society that had them, so I was bullied a lot for being a sensitive male (currently a phrase that is supposed to be a put-down). I was just marked as gay since that’s the only way they could make sense of me. I would have been ok with being gay if I was because I had been raised not to see being gay as bad. School, though, filled me with some of the self-hate I had missed out on.
After all that, though, I also have a lot to learn about being a better community member and remembering that others deserve consideration and not snap judgments just because I’ve been through something wounding. I have some undue privilege as a cis-het white man and I need to be more aware of this and less defensive if I feel attacked in a community, rightly or wrongly. You gave me some excellent food for thought.
It’s crazy how sensitive men can only be seen as gay. Gay doesn’t mean anything other than a sexual orientation. I’m transmasculine but I hate how constricting being a man is compared to being a woman and it’s one of the reasons I wish I was a cis woman. People have often been nice to me when I was ‘sensitive’ but I knew that it was only because they saw me as a girl, which obviously I didn’t like very much. Anyway thanks for the comment.
You're absolutely correct. I should be clear that I'm 41 and none of this was recent, but I'm still seeing the issue you describe, precisely. The ideas packed in with "gay" (when used as a slur) have always been false, and gender role performance for boys has definitely, in my experience, been the way to avoid the bullying that comes along with such a judgment. The thing that really stands out for me is that this bullying all went on in the 90s, in a time where "gay" was the worst thing someone could be called. The ideas of someone's sexuality being fused to their gender role performance go back to before a lot of people hadn't even heard of a trans person yet. I think it's awesome that you are living your truth in spite of the bullshit that comes with the traditionally 'male' construct, and it's just more proof to me that there is no "ideal" way of being a man, which is always a relief to remember. Thanks for your comment!
I can agree to disagree over any minor difference of opinion. When it comes to matters of facts and reality I will push back when the person is completely wrong. We're all exposed to so much propaganda from all over that we have people who no longer accept reality for what it is. People who are denying the genocide is happening, people still trying to bury their heads in the sand at the US's culpability in it. People playing Russian roulette with Covid because Biden said Covid was over. We just had 1,000 people die from it last week. The DNC party was another super spreader event. I'm a realist. I was born that way. I've had to unsubscribe from so many Substacks because a lot of the liberals are ignoring how Biden botched Covid and how it's spreading unmitigated because of it. And completely ignoring the genocide both Biden said Harris are complicit in.
On the one hand it's hard to build community when you don't really have a model for it. But on the other, once you realize you haven't had much of a model for it, you're free to create the community you would like without trying to fit a mold.
Your post reminded me of a book I just finished: Small is Beautiful, which in the 70s was pointing out how "development" was cresting transient populations and tearing apart communities (among many other interesting insights).
Also, I just interviewed a Peace Corps volunteer who served in the Dominican Republic. She lived in a very small town in the mountains, not accessible by cars or even motorcycles, and she recounted the time she saw a community member incredibly drunk in the morning, waving a machete around dangerously and yelling at people. Later that evening, she saw the same man dancing with someone's daughter and was really upset and confronted the family about why they would allow him to do that. It was only later she realized she may have been in the wrong. Or at least, that real communities can be messy and people can do bad things sometimes, but still be part of the community and you still have to figure out how to live with them and maybe encourage change.
Incredible piece! So much aligned with things I have been feeling but didn't know how to articulate!
I newly live with Amish neighbors across the way. A community that I have held a lot of prejudice against. And I sat on my high horse and did the most cruel thing a person can do: I lumped an entire people into one group and put them below me...I gotta stop. *We gotta stop*.
I think I am going to make an apple pie, my secret family recipe, for the nice family that lives across the street from me and get to know them this weekend. I'm fascinated by how they get on without electricity.
This is a really important topic and I’m also thankful for the comments that expand it. I consider myself part of several overlapping communities, between neighbourhood, religious/spiritual, and common interest.
There are always those people who have off-the-wall ideas and theories and sometimes they’re harmless, in which case I think it’s usually best to just calmly downplay it. Some friendly ribbing can be a good way to show you disagree without rejecting them as a human being or your relationship to them.
Some people, despite being very forthright themselves, don’t take any criticism well. I find it’s pointless to try to engage with them in debates as they just get defensive and things get ugly. But the friendly teasing can backfire too as they’re too fragile for that as well. Best thing is to change the convo swiftly and try not to give their ideas any space or energy. (Basic tactic for narcissists, too.)
However there does need to be that possibility of bluntly shutting down or critiquing a genuinely offensive comment or view. It’s not easy and I think this is where the majority of community connections fail. We end up tiptoeing around something that is truly harmful, which ultimately causes more harm because of the stifling environment and cognitive dissonance. Or blow up into a fight that can be quite damaging.
I have come to believe that the only way to deal with these situations is to be healed from trauma. This enables you to broach a thorny topic without dissolving into pointless circular arguments or cat fights. You can only really preserve connections with people you hugely disagree with through curiosity. This is no easy task! But you can’t shut down an offensive community member while in a triggered state. Like someone once said (rough paraphrase): “arguing with idiots is like wrestling pigs: it’s gets you dirty and they enjoy it.”
Point being, gauge the situation and know when to have a serious conversation, when to walk away, and when to groan, roll your eyes, and swiftly change the topic.
Enjoyed your writing & meshing of minds:) I am NOT a fan of Alex Jones & I just don’t listen to the blowhard. But it sounds like your fellow campmate was using a frog comparison to something out there in studies & in the news.
"Pesticide atrazine can turn male frogs into females"
My reaction as a woman is to wish that the guy promoting conspiracy theories had gotten at least a little push back in front of the large group, because silence implies complicity. The silent eye rolls he did not see may allow him and those who agree with him to continue to believe that their peers agree with them, which isn't true.
The reason that this makes me uncomfortable is that I suspect that your experience around this circle would not have been much different had the gentleman made a disparaging comment about women.
Women have been begging the "good guys" to stand up to the creeps in real time when they cat call us or tell sexist jokes in men-only spaces or observe workplace harassments and/or discrimination. We certainly need more than a "not all men" approach to the epidemic of domestic violence against women and children.
We need to acknowledge that men can be the most effective force to make lasting changes to male culture. I would argue that men are the *only* ones who can permanently change male culture. Which is why I find it difficult to hear stories of the self-proclaimed "good guys" remaining silent instead of calling other men to a higher standard.
Totally agree. Shutting down a harmful belief/thought is not the end of conflict resolution. It could even be the beginning. Can't we accept someone while rejecting some of their thoughts and actions?
Would be curious to hear what folks think are effective conflict resolution styles, especially in environments where the requirement to accomplish something or maintain the community persists.
Here her! Change has to come from the men, and it will take recognizing their own power and stepping back and speaking up to truly foster change. We have kept our kindness in check long enough, and it has not created anything close to actual change! Thanks Nina for saying what many of us women feel and aren’t allowed to express bc it’s just not nice…
I just want to say, I appreciate this comment and respect it quite a bit, it’s made an impression on me as I’ve read it a couple times now. You’re absolutely right. I will remember this comment, I hope, the next time I feel the strong “smile/nod/back away slowly” urge I often feel when dealing with these guys. Just because they were tyrannical to the rest of the boys during our school years doesn’t mean we have to remain scared of them as adults.
Thank you. Truly.
Excellent post, modern man as respectful with open hand and mind.
“We can disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist.”
― James Baldwin
Maybe we can make our way back to each other and managing minor annoyances rather than existential threats. It has been interesting to read that so many young people are drawn to Walz because he reminds them of who their father or grandfather could have been were it not for the toxic soup of the maga movement. I think many people long for connection to loved ones lost to a world view of hate and othering.
Lovely post… have just been making a video about exactly all this. 🙌🏽
I needed to hear this for a whole slate of reasons right now. I’m a man who was raised, mostly by a woman, outside the traditional confines of gender roles, but I was still raised in a society that had them, so I was bullied a lot for being a sensitive male (currently a phrase that is supposed to be a put-down). I was just marked as gay since that’s the only way they could make sense of me. I would have been ok with being gay if I was because I had been raised not to see being gay as bad. School, though, filled me with some of the self-hate I had missed out on.
After all that, though, I also have a lot to learn about being a better community member and remembering that others deserve consideration and not snap judgments just because I’ve been through something wounding. I have some undue privilege as a cis-het white man and I need to be more aware of this and less defensive if I feel attacked in a community, rightly or wrongly. You gave me some excellent food for thought.
Thank you for this post.
It’s crazy how sensitive men can only be seen as gay. Gay doesn’t mean anything other than a sexual orientation. I’m transmasculine but I hate how constricting being a man is compared to being a woman and it’s one of the reasons I wish I was a cis woman. People have often been nice to me when I was ‘sensitive’ but I knew that it was only because they saw me as a girl, which obviously I didn’t like very much. Anyway thanks for the comment.
You're absolutely correct. I should be clear that I'm 41 and none of this was recent, but I'm still seeing the issue you describe, precisely. The ideas packed in with "gay" (when used as a slur) have always been false, and gender role performance for boys has definitely, in my experience, been the way to avoid the bullying that comes along with such a judgment. The thing that really stands out for me is that this bullying all went on in the 90s, in a time where "gay" was the worst thing someone could be called. The ideas of someone's sexuality being fused to their gender role performance go back to before a lot of people hadn't even heard of a trans person yet. I think it's awesome that you are living your truth in spite of the bullshit that comes with the traditionally 'male' construct, and it's just more proof to me that there is no "ideal" way of being a man, which is always a relief to remember. Thanks for your comment!
I can agree to disagree over any minor difference of opinion. When it comes to matters of facts and reality I will push back when the person is completely wrong. We're all exposed to so much propaganda from all over that we have people who no longer accept reality for what it is. People who are denying the genocide is happening, people still trying to bury their heads in the sand at the US's culpability in it. People playing Russian roulette with Covid because Biden said Covid was over. We just had 1,000 people die from it last week. The DNC party was another super spreader event. I'm a realist. I was born that way. I've had to unsubscribe from so many Substacks because a lot of the liberals are ignoring how Biden botched Covid and how it's spreading unmitigated because of it. And completely ignoring the genocide both Biden said Harris are complicit in.
On the one hand it's hard to build community when you don't really have a model for it. But on the other, once you realize you haven't had much of a model for it, you're free to create the community you would like without trying to fit a mold.
Your post reminded me of a book I just finished: Small is Beautiful, which in the 70s was pointing out how "development" was cresting transient populations and tearing apart communities (among many other interesting insights).
Also, I just interviewed a Peace Corps volunteer who served in the Dominican Republic. She lived in a very small town in the mountains, not accessible by cars or even motorcycles, and she recounted the time she saw a community member incredibly drunk in the morning, waving a machete around dangerously and yelling at people. Later that evening, she saw the same man dancing with someone's daughter and was really upset and confronted the family about why they would allow him to do that. It was only later she realized she may have been in the wrong. Or at least, that real communities can be messy and people can do bad things sometimes, but still be part of the community and you still have to figure out how to live with them and maybe encourage change.
Incredible piece! So much aligned with things I have been feeling but didn't know how to articulate!
I newly live with Amish neighbors across the way. A community that I have held a lot of prejudice against. And I sat on my high horse and did the most cruel thing a person can do: I lumped an entire people into one group and put them below me...I gotta stop. *We gotta stop*.
I think I am going to make an apple pie, my secret family recipe, for the nice family that lives across the street from me and get to know them this weekend. I'm fascinated by how they get on without electricity.
What Harvey milk referred to as “sharing space” it works.
This is a really important topic and I’m also thankful for the comments that expand it. I consider myself part of several overlapping communities, between neighbourhood, religious/spiritual, and common interest.
There are always those people who have off-the-wall ideas and theories and sometimes they’re harmless, in which case I think it’s usually best to just calmly downplay it. Some friendly ribbing can be a good way to show you disagree without rejecting them as a human being or your relationship to them.
Some people, despite being very forthright themselves, don’t take any criticism well. I find it’s pointless to try to engage with them in debates as they just get defensive and things get ugly. But the friendly teasing can backfire too as they’re too fragile for that as well. Best thing is to change the convo swiftly and try not to give their ideas any space or energy. (Basic tactic for narcissists, too.)
However there does need to be that possibility of bluntly shutting down or critiquing a genuinely offensive comment or view. It’s not easy and I think this is where the majority of community connections fail. We end up tiptoeing around something that is truly harmful, which ultimately causes more harm because of the stifling environment and cognitive dissonance. Or blow up into a fight that can be quite damaging.
I have come to believe that the only way to deal with these situations is to be healed from trauma. This enables you to broach a thorny topic without dissolving into pointless circular arguments or cat fights. You can only really preserve connections with people you hugely disagree with through curiosity. This is no easy task! But you can’t shut down an offensive community member while in a triggered state. Like someone once said (rough paraphrase): “arguing with idiots is like wrestling pigs: it’s gets you dirty and they enjoy it.”
Point being, gauge the situation and know when to have a serious conversation, when to walk away, and when to groan, roll your eyes, and swiftly change the topic.
I’d like to ask which covid mitigation measures were taken to ensure the safety of this community.
Enjoyed your writing & meshing of minds:) I am NOT a fan of Alex Jones & I just don’t listen to the blowhard. But it sounds like your fellow campmate was using a frog comparison to something out there in studies & in the news.
"Pesticide atrazine can turn male frogs into females"
https://news.berkeley.edu/2010/03/01/frogs/
Atrazine in millions of tap water is a hormone disruptor
https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2017/08/atrazine-harmful-weedkiller-taints-tap-water-millions-us
You lost me at "A few days ago I was in a small circle of men". Ewww!
Community needs to actually commune outside of “just likes”!