beautiful writing, empathetic to the core. i think it's natural to slip into the FAFO mindset on occasion, especially when everything is on fire, but it goes against everything we believe in to embrace it. there is no joy in working-class suffering.
Very well-articulated summary of how I've been feeling about those comments. I'm figuratively turning around and going back to reread from the top again. Thanks for sharing
Agreed, this needs a serious reread and integration into a thought process to not just lash out at those who made bad choices, but to work on energizing and bringing people together under a common cause.
I like the thrust of this article, and particularly its recognition that your audience might not be the ones to whom your point is most directed. It’s worth observing, however, how the structural corruption of the Democratic Party not only created the space for Trump to return to Washington, but even put him on the political map in the first place back in 2016. I published receipts for that analysis in the wake of the election. https://shahidbuttar.substack.com/p/7-ways-democrats-made-donald-trump
Ultimately, it’s not GOP voters who fucked around and will find out (as armchair liberals seem to be suggesting), but rather the Democratic Party elites who suppressed an open primary, supported a genocide, disregarded the material needs of their own supporters, tried to sell a vacuous and empty vision of identity-based equality rather than anything even vaguely resembling the social justice for which its supporters have clamored for decades. I wrote a bit about that theme and see in the election results a thoroughly predictable rejection of the less overt fascism long embraced by corporate Democrats aligned with Wall Street and the Pentagon. https://shahidbuttar.substack.com/p/democrats-did-this-to-themselves
I agree that making statements like described, especially generalized ones on social media, is not the way to organize cohesive resistance or build better communities. The vast majority of the people being harmed probably aren't invested in politics, period. A lot of Americans aren't. Most probably, even. There is an amount of schadenfreude that I keep to myself for those people who actually are deserving of it. I don't feel awesome about it but I'm not going to flog myself for feeling it either.
I’m not gloating. I’m angry. That probably makes me normal. I’m not gleeful, I can even dispense with raw urges for revenge. What I want, is for deluded haters who voted for tRump to get to work with us. To fight back against trump and fascism with us. To see the light. To realize sometimes voting against their self interests can have lethal consequences. And the reality of FAFO combined with anger is what it will take to get the attention of some of the trumpers.
If they ignored pleas for reason, truth and civil discourse, then why shouldn’t they bear the righteous rageful consequences of decent people reacting to their painful enlightenment? They will NEVER change without experiencing brutal consequences. Sometimes that might be as simple as knowing we were right and we tried to tell them.
Perhaps out of habit, or maybe for some other reason, you've interpreted this specifically as a call to reach out to the MAGA base specifically. The comment I've seen, and that I'm responding to, are ones directed toward Muslim in Dearborne, Latinos, people who didn't vote etc. I do think there are ways to reach out to Trump voters, but that's not primarily what this is about.
I don’t want to lose my empathy, but if only HIS voters FO after they FA, I might just say live & learn, because I honestly don’t know what else could possibly reach them w/o experiencing the consequences. I can’t really gloat though because of the people that should not have to deal with the same consequences, the ones that did not vote for him don’t deserve this. I often hope that maybe his followers will learn & do better, but I usually get back to the real problem which are the horrific, greedy oligarch & corps. that deserve our full disdain. If anyone should do better it’s those disgusting predators that are sick with power & greed. I often wonder how someone with every societal benefit at their disposal, can intentionally only put out hate & despair - what a miserable existence. I never want to come even a little close to letting hate run my life, but I’m seeing now how that takes daily effort with all the crazies out there trying to burn down anything that’s good for all people.
Don't fool yourself. A large swath of "ordinary working class Americans" have already turned on the rest of us, and we don't magically make that fact go away by refusing to fight back.
the solution is to fight the actual oppressors....not those who are misguided and uninformed. They bring up trans (a tiny part of the population), immigrants, Jews.... they want us to fight each other...not them.
Oppression starts at the top but it doesn't end there. A person doesn't have to be at the very top of the hierarchy of power in order to oppress others. A large swath of Americans have declared themselves to be the foot soldiers for fascism, and many of them want NOTHING more than to be able to unleash violence upon everyone they hate. Personally, if they can.
I was listening to a podcast a few months ago that was talking about disagreement and empathy, and one of the things they said has stuck with me. Studies have shown that those who engage in schadenfreude experience a decline in their overall level of empathy.
I think that some frustration is normal. We're angry at the situation, angry at our neighbors who seem either apathetic or deluded. But even if we think our neighbor has lost every shred of THEIR empathy, it is still OUR choice to retain ours. One of the biggest challenges of empathy has always been having it for those who seem different or less deserving and right now we can model what that looks like.
Yes, I often think about the leftists who organized unions in the 30s and how much grief they endured not just from corporations but from their coworkers, neighbors, friends and instead of becoming enraged at their ignorance they saw their job as one of empathy, education, and outreach. They had a strength and a belief in their mission that I think we've lost thanks in great part to corporate mainstream and social media, along with our politicians, stoking the divides.
Sorry, I am not compelled to extend an olive branch to people who willingly voted for a racist and misogynist because they have similar views. Other POC communities are not exempt because they too have anti-Black, anti-gay, and anti-woman views that they refuse to reconcile.
How am I supposed to offer community to people who cheerfully raised their voice to usher in my demise? My only consolation right now is, yes, they are going to suffer the consequences of the very things they thought would only spite people who look like me.
Thank you. I understand that people are frightened and that these FAFO posts are a way to process those emotions, but we can’t stay camped out there. It’s antisolidaristic and the very thing that helps fascism last.
I don’t want to see something extremely horrible happen to ANYONE. I do want people in the midst of doing something horrible to someone else to be stopped. I also want people to understand where hate will get you, me, any of us. But that’s not going to come from pointless suffering. So what is the point of wishing damage on a bunch of random strangers who don’t have any power? Just more pointless suffering. I simply don’t understand that.
Thank you for this. I have said this a dozen times on Facebook already. "Stop wishing harm on others!" Whether on "your side" or the other side. No one votes for the reasons we think they do. They likely didn't "vote for this".
I agree with your article in sentiment -- sweeping generalizations only hurt constructive dialogue between people. I also feel so much sympathy for those who truly felt that he was their chance out of poverty/struggles, etc. However, I will happily gloat and shun the overtly open racists and fascists that are now feeling the personal ramifications of the first week of this presidency. Someone who is so filled with hate and malice and openly calls for the destruction of other people can kindly get fucked.
Yup! Agreed on shunning overt fascists. I mentioned Muslim folks in Michigan, Latinos and other groups because there are millions and millions of people who aren’t in the “full blown racist MAGA” etc camp. Green Party voters and so on and so forth
beautiful writing, empathetic to the core. i think it's natural to slip into the FAFO mindset on occasion, especially when everything is on fire, but it goes against everything we believe in to embrace it. there is no joy in working-class suffering.
Very well-articulated summary of how I've been feeling about those comments. I'm figuratively turning around and going back to reread from the top again. Thanks for sharing
Wow thank you Tyler. Appreciate hearing this a ton.
Agreed, this needs a serious reread and integration into a thought process to not just lash out at those who made bad choices, but to work on energizing and bringing people together under a common cause.
I like the thrust of this article, and particularly its recognition that your audience might not be the ones to whom your point is most directed. It’s worth observing, however, how the structural corruption of the Democratic Party not only created the space for Trump to return to Washington, but even put him on the political map in the first place back in 2016. I published receipts for that analysis in the wake of the election. https://shahidbuttar.substack.com/p/7-ways-democrats-made-donald-trump
Ultimately, it’s not GOP voters who fucked around and will find out (as armchair liberals seem to be suggesting), but rather the Democratic Party elites who suppressed an open primary, supported a genocide, disregarded the material needs of their own supporters, tried to sell a vacuous and empty vision of identity-based equality rather than anything even vaguely resembling the social justice for which its supporters have clamored for decades. I wrote a bit about that theme and see in the election results a thoroughly predictable rejection of the less overt fascism long embraced by corporate Democrats aligned with Wall Street and the Pentagon. https://shahidbuttar.substack.com/p/democrats-did-this-to-themselves
Spot on!
Pls can you make your substack free on post like this?
I don’t think either of the posts to which I linked include a paywall, but please let me know if I’m mistaken or confused.
I agree that making statements like described, especially generalized ones on social media, is not the way to organize cohesive resistance or build better communities. The vast majority of the people being harmed probably aren't invested in politics, period. A lot of Americans aren't. Most probably, even. There is an amount of schadenfreude that I keep to myself for those people who actually are deserving of it. I don't feel awesome about it but I'm not going to flog myself for feeling it either.
I’m not gloating. I’m angry. That probably makes me normal. I’m not gleeful, I can even dispense with raw urges for revenge. What I want, is for deluded haters who voted for tRump to get to work with us. To fight back against trump and fascism with us. To see the light. To realize sometimes voting against their self interests can have lethal consequences. And the reality of FAFO combined with anger is what it will take to get the attention of some of the trumpers.
If they ignored pleas for reason, truth and civil discourse, then why shouldn’t they bear the righteous rageful consequences of decent people reacting to their painful enlightenment? They will NEVER change without experiencing brutal consequences. Sometimes that might be as simple as knowing we were right and we tried to tell them.
Perhaps out of habit, or maybe for some other reason, you've interpreted this specifically as a call to reach out to the MAGA base specifically. The comment I've seen, and that I'm responding to, are ones directed toward Muslim in Dearborne, Latinos, people who didn't vote etc. I do think there are ways to reach out to Trump voters, but that's not primarily what this is about.
I don’t want to lose my empathy, but if only HIS voters FO after they FA, I might just say live & learn, because I honestly don’t know what else could possibly reach them w/o experiencing the consequences. I can’t really gloat though because of the people that should not have to deal with the same consequences, the ones that did not vote for him don’t deserve this. I often hope that maybe his followers will learn & do better, but I usually get back to the real problem which are the horrific, greedy oligarch & corps. that deserve our full disdain. If anyone should do better it’s those disgusting predators that are sick with power & greed. I often wonder how someone with every societal benefit at their disposal, can intentionally only put out hate & despair - what a miserable existence. I never want to come even a little close to letting hate run my life, but I’m seeing now how that takes daily effort with all the crazies out there trying to burn down anything that’s good for all people.
Turning on each other is what they want.
Don't fool yourself. A large swath of "ordinary working class Americans" have already turned on the rest of us, and we don't magically make that fact go away by refusing to fight back.
the solution is to fight the actual oppressors....not those who are misguided and uninformed. They bring up trans (a tiny part of the population), immigrants, Jews.... they want us to fight each other...not them.
Oppression starts at the top but it doesn't end there. A person doesn't have to be at the very top of the hierarchy of power in order to oppress others. A large swath of Americans have declared themselves to be the foot soldiers for fascism, and many of them want NOTHING more than to be able to unleash violence upon everyone they hate. Personally, if they can.
agree there is too much hate, hurt and violence out there. And not enough love, empathy and compassion.
I was listening to a podcast a few months ago that was talking about disagreement and empathy, and one of the things they said has stuck with me. Studies have shown that those who engage in schadenfreude experience a decline in their overall level of empathy.
I think that some frustration is normal. We're angry at the situation, angry at our neighbors who seem either apathetic or deluded. But even if we think our neighbor has lost every shred of THEIR empathy, it is still OUR choice to retain ours. One of the biggest challenges of empathy has always been having it for those who seem different or less deserving and right now we can model what that looks like.
Yes, I often think about the leftists who organized unions in the 30s and how much grief they endured not just from corporations but from their coworkers, neighbors, friends and instead of becoming enraged at their ignorance they saw their job as one of empathy, education, and outreach. They had a strength and a belief in their mission that I think we've lost thanks in great part to corporate mainstream and social media, along with our politicians, stoking the divides.
I really needed to read this. I had totally lost my way in grief, anger, frustration. Thank you.
I relate! Part of what prompted this for sure
Let em know bruv. Schadenfreude for the most vulnerable, especially if they’re your own neighbors, is the worst version of it.
Sorry, I am not compelled to extend an olive branch to people who willingly voted for a racist and misogynist because they have similar views. Other POC communities are not exempt because they too have anti-Black, anti-gay, and anti-woman views that they refuse to reconcile.
How am I supposed to offer community to people who cheerfully raised their voice to usher in my demise? My only consolation right now is, yes, they are going to suffer the consequences of the very things they thought would only spite people who look like me.
Well said
I am humbled by your remarks. Thank you.
Thank you. I understand that people are frightened and that these FAFO posts are a way to process those emotions, but we can’t stay camped out there. It’s antisolidaristic and the very thing that helps fascism last.
I don’t want to see something extremely horrible happen to ANYONE. I do want people in the midst of doing something horrible to someone else to be stopped. I also want people to understand where hate will get you, me, any of us. But that’s not going to come from pointless suffering. So what is the point of wishing damage on a bunch of random strangers who don’t have any power? Just more pointless suffering. I simply don’t understand that.
Thank you for this. I have said this a dozen times on Facebook already. "Stop wishing harm on others!" Whether on "your side" or the other side. No one votes for the reasons we think they do. They likely didn't "vote for this".
ALL i’ve been wanting to say recently. amazing.
I agree with your article in sentiment -- sweeping generalizations only hurt constructive dialogue between people. I also feel so much sympathy for those who truly felt that he was their chance out of poverty/struggles, etc. However, I will happily gloat and shun the overtly open racists and fascists that are now feeling the personal ramifications of the first week of this presidency. Someone who is so filled with hate and malice and openly calls for the destruction of other people can kindly get fucked.
Yup! Agreed on shunning overt fascists. I mentioned Muslim folks in Michigan, Latinos and other groups because there are millions and millions of people who aren’t in the “full blown racist MAGA” etc camp. Green Party voters and so on and so forth
yes yes! fully agree with that part 🥰